I play a drilled bass drum but I want to get an un-drilled one, mostly because i think it looks awesome.

Does it have any effect on the sound?








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well, i went from a 22'' drilled BD to a 24'' undrilled BD so i cant comment on sound but i agree it looks awesome!!!

i prefer undrilled as i dont like the idea of having alot of weight on the bass drum from toms etc.








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The actual tom mount itself doesn't seem to have much effect imo. The real difference in sound comes from whether or not you have toms mounted on your bass drum. The added weight, plus the additional shells resonating every time you hit the bass drum, will color the sound. I don't have anything mounted on the bass drum, and it seems to sound better to me.

i just put a gibraltar rail mount on my kick because i wanted that vintage ludwig look and it definitely deadened my kick.

it doesn't sound terrible, but it pretty much eliminated the need for ANY muffling at all.









Last edited by sarcasmsetyourhouseonfire on Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

Also, i supose if you use and un-drilled BD then you have a greater freedom of movement of your rack toms as you are using stands for them.








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People who think a virgin bass drum is all the rage are the same people that put a pillow in their drum, no logic to this. I personally like having a tom mount on my drum. I hear no change in the drum and the tom placement is consistent every time. One added feature is the extra weight helps stabilize the drum eliminating or greatly reducing bass drum creep.








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I've tried it both ways, and I'd have to disagree heavily.

The toms being mounted on the bass drum has a big effect on the sound. Not only are you cutting down on the vibration of the shell by putting a lot of weight on it in a direction directly in line with how the shell vibrates, but you're also adding the vibration of the tom shells and heads to the equation. every time you hit the bass drum, the toms vibrate due to being attached.

I'm not really sure about the correlation you're trying to make between not mounting stuff on your bass drum and using a pillow for muffling, unless you're trying to make a claim that both indicate ignorance. All I have to say to that is: sometimes one is looking for that 70's "knocking on the front door" kick drum sound, in which case a pillow in the kick with the front head off is the best option. Personally I've only done it a couple of times when working with a singer songwriter who was looking for some "retro" 70's sounding drum tracks. I also detuned my snare drum and duct taped it. My drums sounded like cardboard. Are you appalled yet? Anyway, that "cardboard" sound was just what she was looking for, and I got paid extra for going that extra mile to get the vibe they were looking for.









Last edited by Alan_ on Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

rritter wrote:

People who think a virgin bass drum is all the rage are the same people that put a pillow in their drum, no logic to this. I personally like having a tom mount on my drum. I hear no change in the drum and the tom placement is consistent every time. One added feature is the extra weight helps stabilize the drum eliminating or greatly reducing bass drum creep.

gotta disagree with you...

virgin bass drums resonate much more and definitely have more 'boom'. as stated, i found this out first hand by putting a tom mount on a previously virgin bass drum.

also... there are plenty good reasons for dampening a kick drum. it might not be your personal preference, but it's far from illogical.

as far as tom placement - by mounting a tom on a cymbal stand instead of a bass drum, you're increasing your positioning options ten fold.

... and while i agree that having a tom mounted on a kick does add some stability as far as sliding goes, if you actually have a decent kick with nice spurs, your bass drum shouldn't go anywhere anyway.

there's also an argument i've heard many times that mounting toms on a kick can actually damage / warp the bass drum shell because of the weight and the constant vibration / banging.

Enlighten me: whats a virgin bass? Is it and undrilled BD?








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I think that's what's being referred to.

I just thought of the connection with that (virgin=undrilled). hold on while I put on my beavis mask.

ok...*uh huh huh uh huh*

Vanden wrote:

Enlighten me: whats a virgin bass? Is it and undrilled BD?

a virgin bass drum generally refers to a bass drum without any sort of tom mounting system drilled in to it.

If you use an open tuning, mounting a tom or two will make a difference. If you muffle your bass drum, and depending on how much muffling you do, it might not matter if you lose resonance from the extra weight.








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Alan_ wrote:

I've tried it both ways, and I'd have to disagree heavily.

The toms being mounted on the bass drum has a big effect on the sound. Not only are you cutting down on the vibration of the shell by putting a lot of weight on it in a direction directly in line with how the shell vibrates, but you're also adding the vibration of the tom shells and heads to the equation. every time you hit the bass drum, the toms vibrate due to being attached.

I'm not really sure about the correlation you're trying to make between not mounting stuff on your bass drum and using a pillow for muffling, unless you're trying to make a claim that both indicate ignorance. All I have to say to that is: sometimes one is looking for that 70's "knocking on the front door" kick drum sound, in which case a pillow in the kick with the front head off is the best option. Personally I've only done it a couple of times when working with a singer songwriter who was looking for some "retro" 70's sounding drum tracks. I also detuned my snare drum and duct taped it. My drums sounded like cardboard. Are you appalled yet? Anyway, that "cardboard" sound was just what she was looking for, and I got paid extra for going that extra mile to get the vibe they were looking for.

First I do respect your view and what works for you is all good. But this is my take on this. No disrespect intended.

I have been approached on more than one occasion and told just how good my bass drum sounds and this is with toms mounted. I have also played my Slingerland kit for years with no mounted toms. As for the sound maybe I just own two great bass drums but there is no noticeable difference. As for my comment about putting a pillow in a drum the biggest knock I’ve heard is that the down tub is what is affecting the resonance of the drum. Many times I have read post from drummers that claim it interferes with the movement of air in the drum. No mention of the weight of the toms being a problem. Take a look at all the companies that use a mount system that doesn’t penetrate the drum but adds weight as I mentioned. Mapex is a good example. http://usa.mapexdrums.com/drums/saturn/images/swbullet2.jpg This is from their Saturn Series. So my comment about the pillow is simple. If a down tub extending 8 inches in to a drum is tabu because it affects the air flow what would a pillow do.

Now take two drums and tune them as close as possible, mount toms on one and hang from stands toms for the other kit. Without looking strike up the band and have a drummer play both kits with the band. Hear any difference?








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rritter wrote:

People who think a virgin bass drum is all the rage are the same people that put a pillow in their drum, no logic to this. I personally like having a tom mount on my drum. I hear no change in the drum and the tom placement is consistent every time. One added feature is the extra weight helps stabilize the drum eliminating or greatly reducing bass drum creep.

alot of people use pillows in theyre bass drums. and alot of people who know alot more about drums than you do do it. so i wouldnt knock it. even if your not gonna have a virgin bass drum, your crippling yourself by mounting your toms off your bass drum. you have usually a few degrees to play with untill your bottom rim hits your bass drum.(unless you want to mount to toms at face-level) and if its not that problem its the fact that you cant move your toms further or closer to you without rotating them in some way. Those are the problems iv had anyway.









Last edited by xdoseonex on Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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i hate drilled bass drums tbh. disaster... it looks horrible if you want to mount your toms elsewhere... its an impurity in the shell... and my toms usually scratch the buggery if i have them how i want... much rather have a mounting post.








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rritter wrote:

[Now take two drums and tune them as close as possible, mount toms on one and hang from stands toms for the other kit. Without looking strike up the band and have a drummer play both kits with the band. Hear any difference?

I record fairly regularly and do some engineering as well, so I'm pretty anal-retentive about every little ancillary sound the kit makes. I can hear the sound of my rack tom faintly ringing when I hit the bass drum if it's on the bass drum tom mount. If you were to make me try to pick out which bass drum had toms mounted on it and which one didn't while somebody was playing them acoustically with a band, I'm not sure I could. Recording kind of puts the kit under the microscope tho.

All respect, my bass drum sounded good when I had the rack tom mounted on it. I just find it sounds a little more "open" when I don't.








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rritter wrote:

I have been approached on more than one occasion and told just how good my bass drum sounds and this is with toms mounted. I have also played my Slingerland kit for years with no mounted toms. As for the sound maybe I just own two great bass drums but there is no noticeable difference.

the reason you didn't notice a difference in sound is because regardless of having toms mounted on your kick or not, you weren't playing a virgin drum. the fact that the holes were drilled and the hardware was mounted was enough to change the sound of your kick.

having toms mounted on your kick isn't going to make a kick sound bad... if that was the case, drum companies wouldn't offer kick-mounted toms as an option.

and a quick comment on the bass drum muffling...

there's a huge difference between a person using a little muffling (when my kick was virgin i used a small 6 inch by 6 inch pillow just to help focus the attack) and a person putting a full sized pillow or a huge blanket in there effectively making it sound like a cardboard box.

sarcasmsetyourhouseonfire wrote:

rritter wrote:

I have been approached on more than one occasion and told just how good my bass drum sounds and this is with toms mounted. I have also played my Slingerland kit for years with no mounted toms. As for the sound maybe I just own two great bass drums but there is no noticeable difference.

the reason you didn't notice a difference in sound is because regardless of having toms mounted on your kick or not, you weren't playing a virgin drum. the fact that the holes were drilled and the hardware was mounted was enough to change the sound of your kick.

having toms mounted on your kick isn't going to make a kick sound bad... if that was the case, drum companies wouldn't offer kick-mounted toms as an option.

and a quick comment on the bass drum muffling...

there's a huge difference between a person using a little muffling (when my kick was virgin i used a small 6 inch by 6 inch pillow just to help focus the attack) and a person putting a full sized pillow or a huge blanket in there effectively making it sound like a cardboard box.

then again some people have theyre bass drums like 1/4 full with crap and it sounds really dead, but gives them that clicky, no sustain sound that just works for them in certain metal applications. (Not that i would do that. been there, done that, realized why it wasnt for me). I personally use a sheet of soundproofing that is a little shorter than my bass drum depth, layed down and just touching my batter head. If i didnt use an externally dampered bass drum batter I would want more muffling inside the kick.








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normally I don't muffle my 20" at all. I use an emperor on the batter and an ambassador on the front, wide open.

the 24" has an aquarian regulator head on the front that both has a dot and a small hole, and I have an emperor batter on that. No other muffling.

I found when I was much younger that I really hate playing on a heavily muffled kick drum.








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Well guys its clear I’m in a minority here but with playing Rock-n-Roll since 1964 maybe my hearing isn’t as sharp as some of you young guys, I’m 58. My point is still I can’t hear a noticeable difference in a bass drum with a down post to one that doesn’t have the post. I also believe the convenience of the mount system (consistent placement, stability) outweighs any difference conceived or heard in sound. Please keep in mind my reference is to live shows. Under the scrutiny of studio microphones there could be something a sound tech could detect. Now having said this I would still consider a desired kit with a virgin bass drum.








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rritter wrote:

People who think a virgin bass drum is all the rage are the same people that put a pillow in their drum, no logic to this. I personally like having a tom mount on my drum. I hear no change in the drum and the tom placement is consistent every time. One added feature is the extra weight helps stabilize the drum eliminating or greatly reducing bass drum creep.

I agree! Consistent tom placement is more important to me.

I can never get my tom where I want it if it's mounted on the bass drum for some reason.








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I say just Buy a Gibraltar Rack to mount rack toms!








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i've to go with convienence on this issue. i like knowing where my toms will be everytime i go to play them. i've used virgin bass drums and the sound difference is not enough to make me switch from a drilled shell. even with memory locks and other modern convienences i've still had issues with placement. we all know that the stage is ultimate test for gear and alot of places are tiny. accomodating that heavy doouble braced single tom/cymbal arm can really lead to a disgruntled guitarist. i like big kits, but the less of a footprint you make the better. another thing you can say is that the manufacterers have been putting tom mounts on bass drums for 70+ years and the whole idea of "if ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind.








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What you are referring to is called a virgin bass drum, and i don't think that it has too much sound difference either way. i just got a custom and the kick is virgin and i personally like it better because i like to have my rack tom on a separate stand. It is all personal preference really, whichever way you like it.

Vanden wrote:

Also, i supose if you use and un-drilled BD then you have a greater freedom of movement of your rack toms as you are using stands for them.

Agreed, this is my favorite part of playing a virgin bassdrum! My options of tom location are pretty much limitless.

Personally I like both......seems to work pretty good for Steve Smith








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Thumbprint wrote:

Personally I like both......seems to work pretty good for Steve Smith

Speaking of Steve Smith, anyone from the Boston area that doesn't already know, Steve is doing a clinic @ Quincy high school on February 25th @ 7:30. I've got my ticket already, they are available through Dicenso drum shop in Weymouth. www.myspace.com/dicensosdrumshop










Last edited by SingleStroke7 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Alexander wrote:

I say just Buy a Gibraltar Rack to mount rack toms!

I agree that these racks are kick a--, but they are very heavy to lug around if you're doing alot of gigs, unless of course you leave it assembled. I didn't have the space in the van for that, so, i would break it down and put it in my hockey bag with the rest of my hardware. When i bought double tom stands and stopped using the rack, it easily trimmed 50 lbs off the weight of the bag!

sarcasmsetyourhouseonfire wrote:

rritter wrote:

People who think a virgin bass drum is all the rage are the same people that put a pillow in their drum, no logic to this. I personally like having a tom mount on my drum. I hear no change in the drum and the tom placement is consistent every time. One added feature is the extra weight helps stabilize the drum eliminating or greatly reducing bass drum creep.

gotta disagree with you...

virgin bass drums resonate much more and definitely have more 'boom'. as stated, i found this out first hand by putting a tom mount on a previously virgin bass drum.

also... there are plenty good reasons for dampening a kick drum. it might not be your personal preference, but it's far from illogical.

as far as tom placement - by mounting a tom on a cymbal stand instead of a bass drum, you're increasing your positioning options ten fold.

... and while i agree that having a tom mounted on a kick does add some stability as far as sliding goes, if you actually have a decent kick with nice spurs, your bass drum shouldn't go anywhere anyway.

there's also an argument i've heard many times that mounting toms on a kick can actually damage / warp the bass drum shell because of the weight and the constant vibration / banging.

i have also heard the argument on the damage of the bass drum. i saw some video where the drummer (i forget who it was, but you can search one of the 10000 videos on drummerworld.com) but he said that the mounted toms can warp your bass drum. since then, i have stopped mounting my toms.








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there's also an argument i've heard many times that mounting toms on a kick can actually damage / warp the bass drum shell because of the weight and the constant vibration / banging.[/quote]

i have also heard the argument on the damage of the bass drum. i saw some video where the drummer (i forget who it was, but you can search one of the 10000 videos on drummerworld.com) but he said that the mounted toms can warp your bass drum. since then, i have stopped mounting my toms.[/quote]

Ahh! the age old arguement. Virgin kick or mouted rack toms. True, undrilled resonate better. If that's your preference, great. I used to use a full Gibraltar cage to mount all my toms and cymbals, but as one of you mentioned, it's just too much crap to lug around from gig to gig. I currently use two 16"x 22" Pearl Masters Series kicks, both with double toms mounted on them and they sound just fine.
Whoever started that flap about mounted toms warping your bass drum either has a very cheap kick or is a little warped themselves. I've only heard of this happening with early Japanese drums such as Crown or Real old Pearls before they started making quality drums, or when guys would mount the really huge rack toms, 14,15 and 16" ers. that used to be popular with some folks.
Also, I'd add that most of the greatest music ever recorded/ performed was done so long before the advent of virgin bass drums, r.i.m.s. mounts, and unless I miss my guess, Buddy Rich never had a rack tom with a stamp inside telling him to tune it to Bb. Most of the greatest drummers we've ever known did just fine on plain old Ludwig or Rogers or Gretsch kits with mounted toms and cymbals. If you really gotta have or can afford these severely overpriced technological advances, more power to ya. I just say, if it was good enough for Buddy, who the heck am I to argue with that. Keep poundin' and God bless ya all!

I just put my rack tom on a snare stand, don't tighten down the basket much.








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i can see why some like the LOOK of a "virgin" kick drum. i have no problem with that.

what kills me is guys who want those undrilled kicks because they just "sound so much better" and don't want the mounted toms to "interfere with the sound", and then what do they do????....they stuff 'em with foam, pillows, blankets, etc!!!!!!

sorta like the ones who just NEED a "rims" or "iso-mount" type of tom mounts and then use pinstripes topped with e-rings, duct tape, napkins, kotex, etc.!!!!

kinda defeats the whole purpose doesn't it?








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nickg wrote:

i can see why some like the LOOK of a "virgin" kick drum. i have no problem with that.

what kills me is guys who want those undrilled kicks because they just "sound so much better" and don't want the mounted toms to "interfere with the sound", and then what do they do????....they stuff 'em with foam, pillows, blankets, etc!!!!!!

sorta like the ones who just NEED a "rims" or "iso-mount" type of tom mounts and then use pinstripes topped with e-rings, duct tape, napkins, kotex, etc.!!!!

kinda defeats the whole purpose doesn't it?

YUP!!!

liquidrummr wrote:

there's also an argument i've heard many times that mounting toms on a kick can actually damage / warp the bass drum shell because of the weight and the constant vibration / banging.

i have also heard the argument on the damage of the bass drum. i saw some video where the drummer (i forget who it was, but you can search one of the 10000 videos on drummerworld.com) but he said that the mounted toms can warp your bass drum. since then, i have stopped mounting my toms.[/quote]

Ahh! the age old arguement. Virgin kick or mouted rack toms. True, undrilled resonate better. If that's your preference, great. I used to use a full Gibraltar cage to mount all my toms and cymbals, but as one of you mentioned, it's just too much crap to lug around from gig to gig. I currently use two 16"x 22" Pearl Masters Series kicks, both with double toms mounted on them and they sound just fine.
Whoever started that flap about mounted toms warping your bass drum either has a very cheap kick or is a little warped themselves. I've only heard of this happening with early Japanese drums such as Crown or Real old Pearls before they started making quality drums, or when guys would mount the really huge rack toms, 14,15 and 16" ers. that used to be popular with some folks.
Also, I'd add that most of the greatest music ever recorded/ performed was done so long before the advent of virgin bass drums, r.i.m.s. mounts, and unless I miss my guess, Buddy Rich never had a rack tom with a stamp inside telling him to tune it to Bb. Most of the greatest drummers we've ever known did just fine on plain old Ludwig or Rogers or Gretsch kits with mounted toms and cymbals. If you really gotta have or can afford these severely overpriced technological advances, more power to ya. I just say, if it was good enough for Buddy, who the heck am I to argue with that. Keep poundin' and God bless ya all![/quote] Thank you, this is true!









Last edited by SingleStroke7 on Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total

nickg wrote:

i can see why some like the LOOK of a "virgin" kick drum. i have no problem with that.

what kills me is guys who want those undrilled kicks because they just "sound so much better" and don't want the mounted toms to "interfere with the sound", and then what do they do????....they stuff 'em with foam, pillows, blankets, etc!!!!!!

sorta like the ones who just NEED a "rims" or "iso-mount" type of tom mounts and then use pinstripes topped with e-rings, duct tape, napkins, kotex, etc.!!!!

kinda defeats the whole purpose doesn't it?

Hahahahahahahahahaha, Yeah it does!

I've had both drilled and undrilled, through a huge PA I don't think there is much difference, I do however think the separate tom mounted on snare stand does look pretty cool, but I wonder about that! How does that stand affect the resonance of the rack tom as opposed to just iso mounted off the bass drum. If i played a double bass kit then I would opt for non drilled but I really think it is splitting hairs about the sound either way!








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UN-DRILLED (or virgin) for sure brother. You're right, it DEFINITELY looks cooler. And sounds better too. The less you mess with your drums, the more pure a sound you will get out of them. Mounting toms from a whole drilled into your bass drum = BAD IDEA. Sure it's kind of a hassle to mount your drums without that hole, but it's well worth the sacrifice. I play a Tama Starclassic Maple with custom tom sizes (shallow rack toms, deep floor toms). My rack toms are mounted from a Gibraltar V-Rack and my floor toms are, well, floor toms (LOL). I find that this set up maximizes the tonal possibilities of my drums. I would encourage every other drummer out there to experiment with a setup like this.








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when I started playing drums, iso mounts weren't in heavy circulation. so, one of the tricks to get a more "open" sound was to just put your tom on a snare stand and not clamp down the basket heavily. You can get more resonance from a floor tom by putting a small bit of foam rubber underneath the legs. I don't notice a ton of difference between the sound of a tom on an iso mount or a tom sitting on a snare stand with the basket loose enough to allow it to move a bit.








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wildmann wrote:

I've had both drilled and undrilled, through a huge PA I don't think there is much difference, I do however think the separate tom mounted on snare stand does look pretty cool, but I wonder about that! How does that stand affect the resonance of the rack tom as opposed to just iso mounted off the bass drum. If i played a double bass kit then I would opt for non drilled but I really think it is splitting hairs about the sound either way!

the snare stand shouldn't affect the resonance as long as you don't choke the drum by tightening the basket a ton. just tighten it until the tom's secure.

But really guys................it can all get fixed in the mix

jimmybang wrote:

But really guys................it can all get fixed in the mix

depending on where you play, there's not always a mix.

Hmmm... I'm reminded that I have a "drilled" tom mount on my 18"x22" Gretsch bass drum. Tho' I mount my toms & cymbals on a Gibraltar curved road series rack, which I love btw. I have still have that tom mount's empty hole on the top of my bass drum from which air escapes. So, I'm going to grab 10 different wine corks, plug up the hole with the one that fits the tightest, then see what difference in sound that makes. I'll be back with a full report! As I figured that the 4" port on my resonant head should be enough portage!








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If you play live and the difference between a drilled and virgin kick can be heard in the audience-Kudos to your sound guy/ house pa tech whatever. In the studio tom mounts do transfer energy from the kick to the toms causing the tom heads to ring, but if your studio engineer can't gate that out he should be fired (ok maybe gate the toms after the tracks are recorded). It's really just your preference in how to mount your toms. I do use a virgin kick and the DW stands I use to mount my toms are the greatest stands I've ever used. They can adjust to any size stage setup (small stage areas suck if your rack won't fit) and have memory locks so things are always in the same place. I thought they we overpriced when I bought them-I was wrong they were worth every penny.








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