Ok, I'm just not getting it, and its pissing me off really bad. I'm looking at Tiger Bill's site to learn the Gladstone Technique http://www.tigerbill.com/drumlessons/buildingmonsterchopsgladstone_part1.htm and I cant seem to get the bounce test done correctly. I mean, I can only get my stick to bounce when tapping by holding the stick practically at the middle. I tried every stick I have. I normally use the Danny Carey Sig models because they're reverse tapered at the butt end (they get bigger), had to hold them just before the middle of the stick. My Steve Gadd sticks I had to hold them right in the space between "Vic" and "Firth."

What the hell am I doing wrong? This cant be right... I hate trying to learn things by myself. Who wants to teach me? Any volunteers? I pay well! Billy Ray, when do you have a day off?








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Right now, I'm crazy. Someday, I hope to be eccentric. The difference between crazy and eccentic is about $2 million dollars.

I'm sorry I can't help man but I like your signature... Keep it up though. Never give up.








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"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy" ~Seal~

Try this, lol. Defenetly, watch some vids on youtube.

When it comes to the bounce test, I'm always surprised how far up the shaft my hands need to be to get the proper bounce. But I do believe that is right. Just keep practicing, I've been practicing it off and on for month and months and still need to practice more. Actually the longer I practice it and play around with it, the more important I think it is.

okay, gotta go practice it now myself.

peace out

edit: and one more thing if the stick isn't bouncing, maybe you're gripping to tightly. You gotta get used to gripping the stick very loose, but still solid, and that can be a trick in and of itself. That's just a thought I had, hope it helps.








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www.myspace.com/xthelonegunmanx == friend me and say hi

My Gear:
Yamaha
Sabian
Remo
Vic Firth

you should see at least a bit of the butt end of the stick coming out of your hand, and you should only be holding tight enough to keep the stick from slipping from your hand. it always looks weird to me when I see folks holding the stick by the very end of it.








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www.myspace.com/alanselectronicmuse

These should help.





And also: http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html








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Dr. Rodney McKay wrote:

Well, I only know one thing and that is that flying darkness that eats energy can only be very, very bad.

http://www.MySpace.com/PageFive

I suppose those vids are better








_________________
www.myspace.com/xthelonegunmanx == friend me and say hi

My Gear:
Yamaha
Sabian
Remo
Vic Firth

TheLoneGunman wrote:

I suppose those vids are better

Nah, yours is more awesome, just because. I certainly wouldn't have found that on my own.

Homki890








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That other video looks like a piano/keyboard exercise.








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Dr. Rodney McKay wrote:

Well, I only know one thing and that is that flying darkness that eats energy can only be very, very bad.

http://www.MySpace.com/PageFive

I think it's just some guy showing off. I found it doing a search for finger technique. It's was random, and weird. Speaking of piano though, it's a percussion instrument, but no one talks about it. I'm thinking I need to learn it a bit.








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www.myspace.com/xthelonegunmanx == friend me and say hi

My Gear:
Yamaha
Sabian
Remo
Vic Firth

Any melodic instrument you learn will make you a better drummer because you'll have a better grasp of where the drums are supposed to fit.








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Dr. Rodney McKay wrote:

Well, I only know one thing and that is that flying darkness that eats energy can only be very, very bad.

http://www.MySpace.com/PageFive

Rather than try to explain myself, I made a video detailing my questions. These came about when I was trying this exercise.











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Right now, I'm crazy. Someday, I hope to be eccentric. The difference between crazy and eccentic is about $2 million dollars.

Did that make any sense?








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Right now, I'm crazy. Someday, I hope to be eccentric. The difference between crazy and eccentic is about $2 million dollars.

It looks to me like your fulcrum is to tight, and your hands aren't loose enough.

I use what's called the control grip, this is where the stick is held between the first joint of the index finger and the thumb, the stick is resting on the tip of the index finger and the tip of the back fingers only.

The webbing between your thumb and index finger should be open, in your video it looks like the webbing isn't open enough, remember the key is to keep as little skin in contact with the stick as possible and keep your hands as open as possible.

Whether you use fingers or wrist is entirely up to you, for me the motion comes from the wrist, but my fingers open and close in time with the stick, but you can use all fingers with this technique too.

As for the bounce test, try adjusting your grip and see if that helps and you don't have to get the absolute optimal bounce point, just find a point where the stick seems to come back of it's own accord. I've done the bounce test on many many different sticks and the I've found the best point to pretty much always be about a third of the way up the stick from the butt.

Hope that all makes sense, if you want to get some more info on this try Dom Famularo's "It's your move" book, or JoJo Mayer's "Secret weapons of the modern drummer" DVD. I am gonna make a video about this as soon as I get a camera!








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To alcohol! The cause of - and solution to - all of life's problems

- Homer Simpson, legend

Of course what I described there is just the technique I use, it is a pretty common grip though, I see lots of drummers using it and Dom Famularo and JoJo both recommend that grip. I should mention that my middle finger is also a part of the fulcrum, so much so that my index finger sometimes straightens out completely and isn't wrapped around the stick at all, this started happening naturally after I'd been using this grip for a while.

EDIT

I can post some piccies of my grip if you like








_________________
To alcohol! The cause of - and solution to - all of life's problems

- Homer Simpson, legend

yes yes!! please do!!








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Right now, I'm crazy. Someday, I hope to be eccentric. The difference between crazy and eccentic is about $2 million dollars.

I would NOT wrap my index finger around the stick like that. Also, the looser your hands are, the faster you can go.

I change the balance point on my grip depending on volume. when playing soft, it tends to balance around the index finger to allow full use of the other fingers for fast articulation. with more volume, it moves back toward the other fingers a tad.








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www.myspace.com/alanselectronicmuse

I thought the finger hook thing looked funny! So when playing loud, is your fulcrum at your thumb and middle finger? I remember Billy Ray mentioned something about having the fulcrum near the back of the hand but I have no idea what he was talking about.








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Right now, I'm crazy. Someday, I hope to be eccentric. The difference between crazy and eccentic is about $2 million dollars.

Take your index finger and completely relax it, holding more with your pinky and ring fingers. Yes, put your pinky on the stick unless you're having a cup of English tea.

Here are some pictures of my grip with a VicFirth Harvey Mason.

This is open. Note that my pinky is still in contact with the stick and that my index finger is not wrapped around. This looks a little tense because I'm holding the stick in position for the picture.


This one is closed. Once again note the index and pinky fingers along with how much of the stick is past my fingers. If I'm playing heavy, I move the butt end so it's flush with my pinky to put more weight at the front of the stick for a greater throw.


Top view, other hand.



And here's a pretty cheese-ball video I made. No sound and I was holding the camera myself, but it's a quick demonstration. Pay attention to the space between my thumb and index finger. Near the end I'll actually pull my index finger completely off, to show that it's mostly just a guide for this. Also, notice how little I actually move my hand to get the rebound. Once you're at whichever position you want, just squeeze your fingers closed for the second note. The stick is a VicFirth 7A.









_________________

Dr. Rodney McKay wrote:

Well, I only know one thing and that is that flying darkness that eats energy can only be very, very bad.

http://www.MySpace.com/PageFive

it says let the sticks fly!!! Send em flyin!!!








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"Not"

Multibomber wrote:

yes yes!! please do!!

Here ya go, hope these are detailed enough for ya...







Notice how the stick rests on the tips of my fingers only, the fulcrum is between my thumb and the first joint (nearest the tip) of my index finger and the tip of my middle finger, also the webbing between thumb and index is very open. I can move my thumb back a wee bit so it's opposite the middle finger and then take my index finger off completely, which moves the fulcrum toward the back of the fingers, this gives a very loose grip which is great for singles...but I'm not too comfortable with it as yet.








_________________
To alcohol! The cause of - and solution to - all of life's problems

- Homer Simpson, legend

Multibomber wrote:

I thought the finger hook thing looked funny! So when playing loud, is your fulcrum at your thumb and middle finger? I remember Billy Ray mentioned something about having the fulcrum near the back of the hand but I have no idea what he was talking about.

I would say that comment would refer to using the MOELLER method - with the fulcrum moving more to the back of the hand. See the Jim Chapins Video for more detail/explanation.

It's not just used for the moeller technique, I went to a Dave Weckl masterclass as few months ago and he was talking a lot about that type of grip, he now uses it all the time on his right hand (he's traditional) so he uses it for everything, he does use a lot of moeller in his playing though. He also said how years of not using the freestroke gave him arthritis in his wrists/hands!








_________________
To alcohol! The cause of - and solution to - all of life's problems

- Homer Simpson, legend

It's known in rudimental circles as the Trifulcrum, because the fulcrum point seems to split between the index and middle finger. While a very good grip, because of the loose nature while being very in control of the stick and also for being very relaxed, it is absolutely horrible for Tenor playing, because of the nature of crossovers and sweeps.

I don't use it very often. I stick to my tenor grip pretty well.

Homki890








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well the bounce test isnt working because you have to get the stick started before you bounce it. when you hitting a drum your putting that initial motion into it. same with dribbling a basketball.

it seems like you might be winding up a bit when your doing the freestroke. remember its a strictly downward motion, and the stick will come back up.

as for the stick pulling on your finger, maybe you should be incorperating your other fingers?








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FUNK PIPE and SGARRETT

The pics and vids were a HUUUUUUUUGGGGEEEEE help! Thanks a lot, I'm already getting better! And Funk Pipe, can you try to explain a little more about what Dave Weckl was saying??








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Right now, I'm crazy. Someday, I hope to be eccentric. The difference between crazy and eccentic is about $2 million dollars.

Well he talked about how in ther 80's and 90's he didn't really use the freestroke much (I'm not sure exactly when he started using it), and years and years of playing with a tight grip gave him pretty bad arthritis in his left wrist/hand, it's fine when he's playing but as soon as he stops it can get extremely painful, poor guy!

Anywho here's a vid of him talking about the freestroke, he goes on to talk about the index/middle/thumb grip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUPu9yA_-7Q

The grip he's talking about here is the same as mine, but his index finger seems a lot looser. When I saw him a few months ago it looked like his index finger was barely in contact with the stick at all!








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To alcohol! The cause of - and solution to - all of life's problems

- Homer Simpson, legend

Ah, we used to watch that video all the time. Not talking trash here, but there are a great number of drummers around here who need to watch that and pay attention.








_________________

Dr. Rodney McKay wrote:

Well, I only know one thing and that is that flying darkness that eats energy can only be very, very bad.

http://www.MySpace.com/PageFive