I see a lot of drummers put a splash cymbal up side down on top of their crash.. i did this for about a month with my fairly new AAX 8"....when i took it off to pack it up for a gig today, i noticed about 5 cracks in the center hole...PISSED!!!.. I have the hard plastic rod/thread covers on my stands, so it wasn't the threads doin it. Also..i know it wasn't like that before i tried this because i have a habit of totally inspecting my cymbals when i tear down and set up.

Anyone ever have this happen?




Shogun








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I just started doing that so nothing yet..I'll have to think twice about it now...Crap I was liking it too..hehe !!








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Yes I have, destroyed the cymbal entirely. We know how we are not supposed to hit the cymbal square on the edge (when it's set up properly), by placing it upside down, we are exagerating this effect. The vibrations are carried wrong, thats why the cracks formed where they did.








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I used to do that. One thing to remember, which I'm sure that you did, is to maybe consider placing a small, thin felt between the two cymbals so you don't have metal-to-metal contact. That may have contributed.








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was it metal-on-metal contact, or did you have a felt between them?

I've never mounted a splash upside-down because I figured with their typically thin profile it might be dangerous.
I have mounted bells in that fashion, but they're so thick I've never had any problems. I always put a felt between them though.








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m wrote:

was it metal-on-metal contact, or did you have a felt between them?

I've never mounted a splash upside-down because I figured with their typically thin profile it might be dangerous.
I have mounted bells in that fashion, but they're so thick I've never had any problems. I always put a felt between them though.

I definitely had a felt between them.
I figured it may haver been this.. by the way the cymbal is shaped, when it's on the stand right side up, it naturally balances level on the stand by the way it's shaped..but upside down, it's gonna naturally tilt to whatever angle the crash is tilted, adding additional pressure to the inside of the hole..so when hitting it, there's no tolerance and it immediately pushes on the inside of the hole..and as the cymbal spins during playing..thus causing the various cracks.

Just wanted to throw this out there to whoever thought about doin this.








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DId you put a smal felt thing in between the cymbals.

I've never seen any sense in setting cmybals up that way. Keep in mind that they are not designed to be struck in that position. In my opinion it's just a flashy way to make your set different and not a performance issue. Peace on ya!









Last edited by stump on Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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stump wrote:

I've never seen any sense in setting cybals up that way. Keep in mind that they are not designed to be struck in that position. In my opinion it's just a flashy way to make your set different and not a performance issue. Peace on ya!

Well.. it did save on space..and it actually does give a slightly different sound..kind of a "cup" sound...if that makes any sense...which sets it a little apart from my other 2 splashes.. ... but i will never set it up like that again.


Shogun








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PDP9000 wrote:

DId you put a smal felt thing in between the cymbals.

Of course.



Shogun








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Why do people set them up this way?

Do you hit the splash or is it used for generating a different sound when you hit the crash?

Please don't riddicule me if the answer is obvious.....im only just starting out!

Bong wrote:

Yes I have, destroyed the cymbal entirely. We know how we are not supposed to hit the cymbal square on the edge (when it's set up properly), by placing it upside down, we are exagerating this effect. The vibrations are carried wrong, thats why the cracks formed where they did.

Hey Shogun and Bong: Yeah, it's a bear when you find things out the hard way and ruin a really good cymbal.

Years ago, I watched Les De Merle do this cymbal bending thing (you'd cup the crash cymbal between your left hand and left armpit, and bend the cymbal while you're playing it with the right hand). Was kind of a cool visual - esp. late night in the bar, but I ruined a really nice 16" thin crash when I was a little too amped on coffee. Anyway, that ended the cymbal bending shtick. Sometimes, ya just gotta learn yourself.








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I'm just going to have to go with putting felt in between them, and learn where to hit the splash so that doesn't happen again. Sorry about that dude, that really does suck.








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I never really saw the point, looks like it'd be alittle harder to reach

Why do people set them up this way?

Do you hit the splash or is it used for generating a different sound when you hit the crash?

Please don't riddicule me if the answer is obvious.....im only just starting out!

Squid wrote:

Why do people set them up this way?

Do you hit the splash or is it used for generating a different sound when you hit the crash?

Please don't riddicule me if the answer is obvious.....im only just starting out!

Its kind of a visual thing, and it saves space (eliminates a stand), and yes the splash is played, unless it was touching the crash it would not resonate it.








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stump wrote:

I've never seen any sense in setting cmybals up that way. Keep in mind that they are not designed to be struck in that position. In my opinion it's just a flashy way to make your set different and not a performance issue. Peace on ya!

ya me to i have never seen that many drummers set up thee splash cymbals like that.

I put a 12" china on top of a large crash (with a felt between of course) of instead of inverting a splash. Chinas are made to be mounted "upside down" anyhow.








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i had a 12" cracked splash and cut it to 8" and mounted it upside down on my 16" crash, after a day of playing it shaped into a china and gives this odd nifty sound, sort of industrial.

Are you using proper felts and sleeves?. Make sure when you hit the splash cymbal, it doesn't move or swing that much and at the same time it also doesn't become stiff.

Shiiit! Never mounted like that, just showing my respects to your lost cymbal!








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As a general rule of thumb you should never really mount cymbals upside down. unless its a bell








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I've being doing the upside side down splash on top of a crash cymbal (and on top of other percussion too) for a while and never experienced any problems, although it makes perfect sense - specially is the felt washers are not making enough pressure on the cymbal to make it come back to its "rest position".

I like to tighten its wing nut a bit so the felts absorb some of the impact force. I don't hit my splash cymbal as hard, neither in the same way, as I would hit an 18" medium crash, so I don't worry about the felts / wing nut making too much pressure on its cup.

Besides saving space and the need for extra hardware, playing a splash inverted has a different sound quality. To me, it makes a louder sound because my ears get better exposed the cymbal bell. For those who have not noticed, cymbals sound louder/fuller from underneath - that's why ride cymbals sound better when miced underneath the bell - but it is quite difficult to mic every cymbal that way, specially if you like to place them low, as I do.









Last edited by dannydrumperc on Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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hmm, dya reckon this would happen with a bell placed inverted upon a cymbal ? e.g a zil bel








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phil-drummer wrote:

hmm, dya reckon this would happen with a bell placed inverted upon a cymbal ? e.g a zil bel

I mount Zilbels and my Turk Master bells this way, even on top of splashes sometimes. So far, no problems-
they're much thicker than splashes. Still probably want a felt between them though









Last edited by m on Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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m wrote:

phil-drummer wrote:

hmm, dya reckon this would happen with a bell placed inverted upon a cymbal ? e.g a zil bel

I mount Zilbels and my Turk Master bells this way. So far, no problems-
they're much thicker than splashes. Still probably want a felt between them though

cheers man, good advice








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m wrote:

was it metal-on-metal contact, or did you have a felt between them?

I've never mounted a splash upside-down because I figured with their typically thin profile it might be dangerous.
I have mounted bells in that fashion, but they're so thick I've never had any problems. I always put a felt between them though.

I know that Dave Weckl used to do this but the cymbals were really loose.








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i use to do this
only because i couldnt find the right place for my splash
and when i toyed with the notion to just put it on top
i fell in love it was the perfect place just kinda right there
keep in mind though i dont like to have my crashes way high
theyre realitivly low. anywho
i never experienced the crack problem or bending or anything
i just after awhile slowly backed away from the splash to the point
where i just stop using it.

but sorry for the loss man. when a cymbal
dies its a sad sad day.

Thanks for this mate.

I have a piece of advice for all who reads this:
Don't be cheap and respect your cymbals. Buy a cymbal arm. I got one for about $30 AUD. I mean... Isn't it worth spending $30 instead of having to buy a new splash for about $100+?








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SHOGUNWARRIOR32 wrote:

I see a lot of drummers put a splash cymbal up side down on top of their crash.. i did this for about a month with my fairly new AAX 8"....when i took it off to pack it up for a gig today, i noticed about 5 cracks in the center hole...PISSED!!!.. I have the hard plastic rod/thread covers on my stands, so it wasn't the threads doin it. Also..i know it wasn't like that before i tried this because i have a habit of totally inspecting my cymbals when i tear down and set up.

Anyone ever have this happen?




Shogun

With upsided-down splashes, it's inevitable that you'll form cracks around your hole. (that could be interpreted wrong

It's happened to my sabian as well - [that cymbal is so f**ked now.]

Many of the drummers you've seen with that cymbal on top, were likely using a thick bell-chime; not a splash. bell-chimes, as you know, are much thicker and stronger so, flip-side or right-side-up is fine for them.
Hey ~ you could try to mount it loosely above your hi-hat!

I have done this for years in different set-ups, with an 8" K splash and a 6" A Custom, as well as Paiste Cup Chimes, Zil-Bels, Ice Bells, etc. The splashes have been on my kit for 4 or five years, and I have not ever had a problem with them. I use thick felts between, and keep the wing nuts loose to maximize cymbal and splash movement. I also don't use my splashes to excess, and I don't hit them like I would a crash, which probably helps. There is definitely a real danger of cymbal damage, but I use this to minimize space. It is true that a grabber arm is cheap, but I still can never get everything where I want it. I have, however, bent a couple of cup chimes ever so slightly from stacking, which led to changing my striking technique on them.

rip a thin layer off one of yur other felt pads and put that in between.. works wonders








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I have set up my slashes and mini chinas like this too for a really long while. I have NEVER had a problem with the cymbal cracking. Just put a felt between the crash and splash or china, bell, etc... and DON'T TIGHTEN DOWN THE WING NUT SO DAMN MUCH!. That's basically ur problem, ur cymbal has to "breathe" don't choke it by tightening it down so much, that's pretty much newb status.

If your gonna play splashes that way it would be a good idea to use cymbal springs or even a cymbal stacker.








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I'm sorry but, isn't this common sense?








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Howepirate wrote:

I'm sorry but, isn't this common sense?

Just to address a few questions and suggestions that keep popping up.. yes felts were used... yes there are certain positive reasons to stack like this including a different sound with increased attack, space saving, etc,... and to imply stacking like this has no common sense...hhmm.. that little pic that i put in the starter post is cropped from Dave Weckl's kit... I suppose he has no common sense?

In summary.. there are people who like to do this and people who don't and wont.. I liked it very much..until my cymbal cracked..so just be cautious.. that's all.


Shogun








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SHOGUNWARRIOR32 wrote:

Howepirate wrote:

I'm sorry but, isn't this common sense?

Just to address a few questions and suggestions that keep popping up.. yes felts were used... yes there are certain positive reasons to stack like this including a different sound with increased attack, space saving, etc,... and to imply stacking like this has no common sense...hhmm.. that little pic that i put in the starter post is cropped from Dave Weckl's kit... I suppose he has no common sense?

In summary.. there are people who like to do this and people who don't and wont.. I liked it very much..until my cymbal cracked..so just be cautious.. that's all.


Shogun

Ok, theres people who get cymbals for free, then theres us . I have stacked many cymbals over the years (splashs included), i just knew what the side-effect was gonna be. I mean...DUH. lol








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"I never said that gear makes the player...I just wanted to exploit the other side of the argument."

oh don't know maybe it's just me, but after you've busted most everything on your kit more than once (the lone exeption being my seamingly indestructible tama titan snare drum stand which is currently 29 years old and counting (yes i got it brand new out of the box)) you really don't sweat the little things like blowing out a little splash cymbal. i had a phase a while back where i used to go through hi-hat's every 4 - 5 months, now that gets expensive, but still not a show stopper.

I've tried this and love the effect I get on different splashes. When I first started though, I used bad striking technique and actually caused one of my splashes to "pop" inward on itself, making it look like a china. The sound it made while inverted was interesting, and after the gig, I popped it back into normal shape with no damage. Must have gotten lucky. lol








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Depending on how much you play and the type of music you play, equipment will have it's lifespan. Even with professional equipment one will experience mechanical failure from time to time.
When inverting cymbals on top of another, I have always placed a thick felt between the bells and applied enough tension on the wing nut without choking it.
I have an LP Ice Bell inverted on top of a Zildjian K China. I have never had any problems.
Keep in mind though, that splash cymbals are classified as thin or paper-thin, and the thinner the cymbal the more likely they are to fail. With a splash inverted and cracking at the bell, near the hole, this is most likely due to the wing nut being to tight or metal to metal contact.
I seen a perfectly good Zildjian K thin crash ruined by a drummer who left off the top felt and tightened the wing nut down too tight.
If you perform out regularly and you are not fortunate enough to have endorsements, you need to factor in wear and tear with mechanical failure on the gigs you do.








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Potatoe Snack wrote:

I never really saw the point, looks like it'd be alittle harder to reach

I agree, and i dont think cymbals were made to be played like that. ( this is just my thought ) but i think the shape of the cymbals being the way they are...are meant to be played one way. it seems like theyd have no give upside down like that. but then again...shogun, you rock so i dont know...lol








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